Half black, half white apple snail....Is this a first???!

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Half black, half white apple snail....Is this a first???!

Postby freakysnailshop on Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:53 pm

Hey all,

Been breeding apple snails for nearly 6 years now and have my own site www.snailshop.co.uk

As this is definately the site for all things apple snail related i thought it was the best place to share my new discovery!

I have bred an apple snail with a half white and half blue/grey body. The line of division literally is like it has been drawn vertically down its body. As most of the body colour under the shell is blue/grey the shell appears blue.

I am calling him/her a 'piebald apple snail' and i believe it to be the first of its kind ever in the world!

If i am wrong in this assumption then please correct me, but i have not seen any other mention of this happening anywhere else.

I am hoping to fix the strain to hopefully pass on this trait with further offspring.

Would appreciate your comments and scientific explainations with regards to possible genetics! Will try and get more pics on her asap.
Thanks
Louisa
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Postby pbgroupie on Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:02 pm

Hi and welcome to the forum family! :wave: Even though it's a little difficult to see through your watermark, there is definately a half and half thing going on there. Do you have any other pictures that shows the trait? It looks like a genetic mutation and I don't know if you'll be able to duplicate it, but it's the first time I've seen it. Is the shell all one color or does that also show a half and half trait? Even it's face is divided by color! A calico snail! :lol:
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Postby Pollux on Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:25 am

:o :o :o *gasp* he is beautiful!!!!!!!!
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Postby jonfr on Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:13 am

It is actually P.diffusa. But this is a really nice color. You should try to raise more of them, at least keep the color gene from this snail active by get offspring's from him.
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Postby freakysnailshop on Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:32 pm

Hi,
Thanks for your comments.
The shell is blue all over - i presme this is because its body is black mainly under the shell.
He/she is very friendly! Sorry about the copyright watermarks, but have had my pics stolen before and its annoying :toomuch:
Im very excited about breeding from it, hopefully will get a few mutants out of the next cross.
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Postby pbgroupie on Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:57 pm

I can understand about picture stealers after having mine "borrowed" without permission as well. :roll: The more I think about it, and from what I think I see (pink eye on that side?) the absence of pigment is a genetic abnormality. I'm not the genetic guru that Donya is, but the lack of color would be a recessive trait and may be hard to duplicate. (I'll PM her and get her involved so she can give us the low down.)

Do you know who the dad and mom are? Were there any other snails from that clutch who showed the trait? It also looks like there are some very faint stripes on that blue! Now that would really be rare if you could darken the stripes. :o
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Postby Donya on Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:56 pm

Thus proving that I do try to keep an eye on the PM box still...I shall now offer my detailed and scientifically correct view on the matter.

...What the...?! :o

Well ok I have a bit more of a hypothesis than that lol. Lemme see if I can type this up in a few min before I have to get out of the coffee shop.

This isn't the first case I've seen & heard of of an animal that shows split traits right down the middle like that - it's the sort of thing that often occurs in the embrionic stages of development. Simplest case: the embrio hits a stage when it has 2 cells destined to become the left and right sides of the body and one cell makes a mistake and turns a gene off or on that it shouldn't have when those 2 cells are first forming. If that happens, poof...animal that looks like two different ones stuck together because one side is expressing a trait that the other one isn't. It's driving me nuts that I can't remember whch animals I saw the examples in...mice were surely one (everything with genetics has to do with mice at some point :roll: ) but I'd have to do some digging to remember where I first saw it published.

With that as a going hypothsesis, in all liklihood it won't be heritable. If it is and the offspring show the trend, that hypothesis goes out the door and there is something else more compliciated going on with pigment expression genes in the foot.
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Postby pbgroupie on Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:06 pm

You wouldn't know it, but English is Donya's first language. She just speaks such complicated English I have trouble following her sometimes. :rofl: Just kidding sweetie! :flowers:

So it sounds like, unless you can replicate the trend in the offspring, it's a freakish occurence. So start concentrating on those stripes. :lol:
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Postby badflash on Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:42 pm

There are many cases where fraternal twins merge into a single being. Scientists are now starting to think that all cases of people with eyes of different color, or faces that are not symetrical are infact merged twins. There was a pretty famous case where a mother wanted to donate part of her liver to one of her twin sons. Genetic testing of a swab taken from her mouth showed that she wasn't related to her children at all. She objected and an investigation showed that there could not have been a mix up at birth. When they did genetic testing using a blood test, she came up as a match. Had they swabbed her other cheek they would have gotten a match too. She had totally different DNA on one side of her body than on the other.

I'm guessing that something like that happened here, and it is not genetic.
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Postby Annie Anderson on Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:25 pm

That is absolutely amazing :o :o :o :o !!! I hope it can pass down to it's offspring. But even if not, he/she is surely one of a kind :yes: :yes: . Make sure you get all the pictures you can of him--maybe he could be in that book, what is it...umm...is it world records? Or Book of Lists? My mind has gone blank on me but that snail is truly a wonder. Congratulations!!
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Postby freakysnailshop on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:59 am

Were there any other snails from that clutch who showed the trait?


Yes there was one other in the clutch - it had a white shell with a split dark foot. Unfortunately, it developed a large split in its shell and hasn't grown very well. By the time i had spotted it the damage was too far gone. I have since isolated it and given it loads of calcium, but i dont think its shell will ever develop properly. :cry: So it may or may not get up to breeding size.
So this makes me think that it is more than just a genetic accident, perhaps a trait i can actually fix - would this be more likely Donya? (thanks for your comments!)Unfortunately i wasnt able to isolate the parents, so its pot luck there.

I think the big freak/ calico/piebald apple snail is a female so fingers crossed for egg laying soon. Will update this thread with any news as and when. Thanks all xxxx
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Postby Donya on Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:17 pm

That number of occurrences isolated to one clutch doesn't serve as an indicator for heritability. You have to see it across generations to suggest that, and even then it has to be demonstrated that it's not environmentally-induced somehow. Think frogs with multiple legs - that was put up to genetic mutation from populations in polluted areas until they found an obscure environmental cause for it during limb development. Having X number of occurrences within the same cltuch isn't much different indicator-wise from the whole clutch turning out with a strange abnormality - it may suggest an environmental component, but doesn't suggest heritability. There is, of course, the famous calico cat case. That's a later-stage version of something similar to the original hypothesis I gave, but it would again take more documented individauls to show similarity to the calico condition (I'm also not sure that snails' chromosomes behave the same way).

Short summary: there is nothing so far that I've read that would concretely support or not support this being heritable. As far as I can tell, more likely hypotheses at this point would be mutation-based (or something like Badflash mentioned) and environmental causes based on cases I've seen in other animals.

Badflash - can you point me to a reference on that? I vaguely recall hearing something along those lines once but am being unable to turn up anything relevant on the search engines.

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Postby freakysnailshop on Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:13 pm

Yep i see what you mean Donya, well i guess i'll just have to hold my breath and cross my fingers that some do appear in the next clutch. :wink: x
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Postby rpilla001 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:43 pm

This appears in some dogs where they have different colored eyes. My dog has a split personality, does that count.


AARRGHH!! I digress again, sorry.
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Postby pbgroupie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:45 am

Ummm...what's the famous calico cat case? OT, I know, but you did bring it up Donya.
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