Study: Lobsters Unlikely to Feel Pain (includes snails)

[joyce tryoon]

Oscarfish,
I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why we have always planted a huge garden. I still can all my vegtables, fruits and even meat. We buy our meat from farmers that raise organic fed animals. Raised in pastures. Up until a few years ago we raised all our own food. There are times we have to buy things from the grocery but I sure wish we didn't. I love the idea that we could be totally self sufficent if we had to. Because we live where we do, we have to be prepared not to depend on electric or gas. We are prepared and its a good feeling.
Joyce

[LvsSunDrop]

On Saturday Night Live lastnight, they had a little "news story" on this! The joke went something like... 'Scientists believe that lobsters are not able to feel pain.... this does not include the incredible shame they feel when being served at Red Lobster'...

It went something like that, anyway. It was more funny when Tina Fey told the joke.

[Donya]

Not one student refused to do this. Why because the instructor said the animals felt no pain and it did not bother the animals.

The whole lab issue with animals, particularly in colleges, is part of what turned me off to being a biology major. I was all gung-ho for it right up until I signed up for a field biology class and the introductory lecture went something like this:

Professor: "when we are out in the field, we will be using bird nets to catch and tag birds."

Random student: "how many birds die from the bird net?"

Professor: "we don't talk about that, and you never say the word "dead" or "dying" when out netting in public.

...

Professor: "You will also learn how to collect specimens in this course. I had one student that got an A in the course from collecting all sorts of rare, almost un-documented small fish from the area."

Random student: "How did he bring fish into class?"

Professor: "All specimens are preserved in this class."

I dropped that class immediately after the first lecture. I've been told by many people that basically all bio majors if they go to good, high-level schools will be required at some point to start "collecting specimens". I guess there are a few ways around it, but it's tough to get out of it with some Professors. The thing that really ticks me off about that is that it has resulted in an over-abundance of a lot of preserved animals. There are already plenty, and they don't need more, but they do it anyway...going into Compuser Science with a Bio minor should let me get around that issue.

[OscarFish]

Oscarfish,
I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why we have always planted a huge garden. I still can all my vegtables, fruits and even meat. We buy our meat from farmers that raise organic fed animals. Raised in pastures. Up until a few years ago we raised all our own food. There are times we have to buy things from the grocery but I sure wish we didn't. I love the idea that we could be totally self sufficent if we had to. Because we live where we do, we have to be prepared not to depend on electric or gas. We are prepared and its a good feeling.
Joyce

Yeah me and the mrs are working on a deal right now to buy 360 acres total just for that self supportive reason. That and a place to keep all these cursed pets lol. They guy selling us the land is great and is breaking it into 3 seperate plots of land to help us buy them easier instead of doing a lump sum for all 360 acres. He also is doing it land contract with us too as the bank wanted 40% down. First thing planned is a garden from hell. We are really looking forward to it and have already gotten our first 4x4 for the land as it is very hilly and the 2x4 just won't do. With 360 acres the Sulcata Tortoise we just got about a month ago will have plenty of room.

[joyce tryoon]

Donya,
I believe every word you posted. The exact same thing happens here, at our local college. My husband retired from this college. I worked teaching the mentally and physically Impaired. So we have first hand knowledge of the workings there. Rooms of shelves, loaded with perserved animals of every kind. BTW the answer to the why of encourging students to bring in specimens, do these abusive tests. Makes it more interesting for the students In my opinion this type of teaching, conditions students to devalue life in the name of Science.

Oscarfish,
Good for you! Not only do you need that 4x4 but if you live where it snows a blade would be needed. Summer is a great time to start looking for one of those. Also pick yourself up a tractor,back hoe, loader,blade and brushhog.
A Johndeere mini-tractor with all those implements, would do everything you would need to do to your land for around $25,000 That is buying it new. Another thing. A log splitter, would be great. hooks right up to your tractor. That is if you plan on burning wood. A lot of these things can be homemade. Our property with all the trees has saved us $$$$ I hope the land you are buying has plenty of free firewood. It will last you a lifetime. Just thin it out like you do garden plants. A face cord of wood here sells for $45 dollars. Lots of folks made their living just off selling firewood. City people will pay a small fortune for White Birch. Just because its pretty We don't sell wood, but if we had to we could. Lots of locals sell vegtables at the farmersmarket. Also eggs and honey. Think on this line as you plan.
Hugs,
Joyce

[OscarFish]

thats exactly the line we are thinking on. Of the 360 acres 100 acres of it is dense wooded area, enough firewood for my lifetime and then some and we have plans to keep planting trees for everyone we take down. However there are enough dead and fallen trees out there currently to supply us with firewood for about 10 years. Unfortunately the land has no buildings on it and that will come later once its all paid for and done. We've already looked into a used tractor and the sorts as there is some erosion out there and will need to be rebuilt and graded and so forth.
My mom and dad will be helping with this too and their retirement home will be the first one built. I currently own two houses and once mom and dads retirement house is built, we can sell the one in the city or rent it, all depends I guess. The second house we bought in December when a friend loaned us the money for it and then we land contract to pay him back. A 3 bedroom 2 story 1 car garage with 2 vacant lots next to it included all for a mere 10 grand. That house does need some work but its well worth it. Plus its only a 15 minute drive or less to the 360 acres land. Once our house is built out there (finally a house built to my specs and not someone elses, wonder If I will have room for a couple hundred aquariums lol) we can sell the house we paid 10 grand for and make some money off that one since its appraised at 60 grand (bank repo so it was real cheap because the bank that repoed it was 1500 miles away and didn't want it anymore on their books)
The only thing we may have to worry about is Hawks and Falcons with the Cats as they have been known around here to actually grab cats (and some small dogs) and take them off to their mining camps.
The land has so many deer on it that the owner said if you can't bag one in 20 minutes your a lousy hunter. And the nite me and dad went out there, we must have seen about 40 deer just on the 64 acre part. Wild Turkey, Coyotes, Fox just to name a few others we have seen. The Farmer up the road has even seen Mountain Lion here. Hard to beleive we got them here in Iowa but we do. We close on the property in June but the owner has already said "make yourself at home" so we have a camping trip (free camping, sorta) planned on March 26th, hopefully it warms up by then.
The land also has a creek that runs along the rear of the property line that is about 20-30 feet wide, pretty good size creek. and there is also maybe a 2 acre pond on the property. I am so axious and can't wait for closing date. First thing we plan to build for it though is the outhouse till plumbing can be established and that won't happen till after the houses are built. Maybe next week I'll post an aerial shot of the land for ya.

[joyce tryoon]

Oscarfish,
WOW! I got excited just reading all of that. You have the perfect property.
Had to laugh. One of the first things we built is an outhouse too. Hubby's pride and joy.LOL Power went out a few years back for 8 days. 7 Kids,two of the grandkids were living with us. Kids had the best time thinking of reasons to go to the outhouse at night. My husband and I would hear the boys or the girls , snickering and giggling on there way out of the house. Then the boys or girls that didn't have to go, would beat feat out the house to scare the ones comming back. Blood curdling screams echoed through out the woods.
My husband built our first house and then the second house, plus three pole barns, chicken coup and his beloved outhouse. We all helped. We are old now but those are fond memories. I like the fact that your parents are involved in this. With that many acres, you could make a nice living off the land. Hard work but good honest enjoyable work.
Owls, hawks are a bother to our poultry. Also coyotes,Bob cats skunks,weasels. We do battle those. Can't let the dogs run outside the fenced yard. Coyotes will kill them. The cats are pretty smart. They stay right up close in the yard come nightfall. I don't know how a city raised cat would do though.I know we have at least one cougar in the area but it hasn't been a problem. A bear passed through a few years back but haven't been bothered with that either. Keep on the lookout for a generator a big one. Such a blessings if you want to start something and don't have the power installed yet. Another thing to look for is a cement mixer. That you will have many uses for and even a small one saves you so much time and energy. First thing is a couple of different size chainsaws too. Are you planning on building a root celler? Homemade smoke house would be great too. We have old fencing over our chicken pen and run, that pretty much keeps the hawks etc out. I could share your dream all day.Lol I know you can do it. This was our dream and we made our dream come true. I'am very very happy for you.
Hugs,
Joyce

[OscarFish]

Maybe we should start a dream thread.

Generator--- Already got one, and not one of them Pansy little 750 watters from the local store either. Managed to find a Military Surplus 3k Generator. I worked on them in the army so thats a big plus. 3k is not a lot by todays standards (referigeratos need 2k just to start up and then 800 watts to run on usually) But the military one is meant for good old hard CONSTANT use versus the junk in the stores they sell which are standby generators and are only meant to run a couple hours at a time.
Heck I was reading the description on a 50k generator that stated the engine life was 3000 hours. 4500.00 for a generator with an engine life of 125 days (constant use that is). Runs on Diesel and Bio Diesel is easy to make, that and conversion to SVO (straight vegetable Oil) is really not that difficult or hard as some people think it is. Taught us all that in the military.
Chainsaw we have one right now and plan to get at least 2-3 more.

LMAO on the kids scaring the other kids. That is just soo much fun don't ya know hehehehehehehe.

Green house, Root cellar, Commons building for friends and family campouts, Out houses, Methane generators for our own fuel, Hydroelectric generators to go with the diesel generator. Water storage tanks and purification system, sand point wells, you name we'll do it and completely off the grid too. Thats our main goal, off the grid and self sufficient.

[joyce tryoon]

Oscarfish,
I'am so impressed. REALLY! We could get off the grid and survive very well. We drove three wells. Its all about water and fire. Got that you have it made.
Don't forget to brush up on doing your own vet care for your critters. Vets are expensive and you will use, at one time or another all you learn. Turning a calf is like reaching your arm in a tub of jello with a blindfold on Then try to figure out what part of the calf you finally have your fingers on. The thought of goats with triplets, still give me nightmares. Boy I miss those days. Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and have planned wonderfully.Goats milk raises the most beautiful pigs . I know alot of people don't care for goats but to me they are the best all purpose animal in the world. I milked a herd of 10 morning and night and they paid their own way a million times and more.
Joyce

[daj198]

The study was probably funded by sea-food restaurants! How do they know if they can feel pain? They probably concluded that if they don't scream, they don't feel it. some ppl r so stupid.

[Katbells]

Bah! How horrible. This sort of psudoscience has been around for an awful long time. It hasn't been very long since docters realized that human infants could feel pain. This change has come about in my lifetime. Before this (painfully obvious) realization infants were operated upon without anesthesia. It's amasing how careful some scientists can be to ignore the obvious rather than re-evaluate society's assumptions.

[angllady2]

I know this is an old thread, but I just had to add something.

If worms can't feel pain, why is it so darn hard to get them on a fishing hook ?

I mean, H-E-L-L-O anyone who has ever fished with a worm in their life knows darn well worms feel pain. Otherwise why would they be just fine and dandy until the hook point hits them and then turn into the equivalent of a worm bronco ?

Now, I'm not condemning anyone who uses worms, I do. I also don't have a probelm with anyone who doesn't. I will say, I fish to eat, and I eat what I catch.

I used to clean my fish alive, it was the way I had been taught. But since I started keeping snails and such, I can't bring myself to do that anymore. When I fish, I bring along a cooler full of ice and a little water. When I get ready to leave, the fish are plunged headfirst into the icewater, and it only takes a few seconds for them to pass out, and they die as peacefully as possible. Sure, my fingers get cold when I clean them, but I feel better about it.

It makes me sick to think of all the suffering caused every day in the name of science. Now, I don't condemn all animal testing. I know some of it is beneficial to people, and that some scientists are very caring of their charges. But they are few and far between, in general animals are treated as disposable, and that's not right.

Gale

[stu46]

All creatures great and small feel pain, it is neccessary for survival, if a creature ventures into a place where damage is likely, it will get out of there because of pain, without pain it wouldn't and die. the american food industry will do anything to preserve profits.

Stuart